Hair Loss

Anything But Mid is hosted by Amy Edwards and Whitney Stropp. Neither host is a doctor and nothing here is medical advice. Lightly cleaned for readability.

Whitney: And we're recording. Okay. I'm Whitney.

Amy: And I'm Amy. Oh! I'm Whitney and I'm Amy, and you may be in midlife, but you're anything but mid.

Whitney: All right. Today's episode is my personal hair loss journey.

Amy: A lot of people have been talking to me about hair loss. I feel like it is something that was never talked about before and now it is.

Whitney: No, and for someone like me, I've always had a beautiful head of hair.

Amy: You have a gorgeous head of hair. Very thick, lustrous.

Whitney: Full and just thriving. And what was really crazy is, so I've always had great hair, and then during the pandemic, I don't know if you remember because we were working at the radio station together, but my hair went into overdrive. And it was the most luxurious it has ever been. Like, it was thriving during the pandemic. And the only thing that I could figure out was the only thing that I was doing was I was taking marine collagen.

Amy: No way.

Whitney: Yes. Now, there's a lot, first of all, as we always say, we are not doctors.

Amy: We are not doctors. This is not medical advice in any way, shape, or form.

Whitney: This is just personal experience and opinion. So, and at the time I'd probably been taking it for like a year, maybe.

Amy: Wow.

Whitney: Yeah, and I hadn't really thought about what the... I don't even remember why I was taking it. I feel like everyone was just taking it.

Amy: I didn't even know about marine collagen back then.

Whitney: Oh, really?

Amy: I feel like collagen wasn't a big thing back then.

Whitney: I don't know, I guess I was on the cutting edge. I'm not sure.

Amy: You really were an early adopter.

Whitney: I was early to the party, the collagen party. But, since then, like when you listen to people talk about it, you can find people that are like, "There's really no research that says 100% that collagen is working." You'll hear people say, "Oh, you can't ingest collagen to create collagen." Like, it's a whole thing.

Amy: Really?

Whitney: And I don't know what's true. But all I know is during the pandemic, I had the best hair I've ever had, and I was taking marine collagen.

Amy: Why'd you stop?

Whitney: Because they raised the price.

Amy: A great reason.

Whitney: They raised the price of my marine collagen and I was like, "Meh, I don't need it," okay? And not realizing that maybe there was a correlation between the great hair and the collagen, right?

Amy: Right, but in hindsight, that's what you're thinking.

Whitney: That's what I'm thinking, maybe there was. Yeah, and then when I went back and did a little bit of research, collagen does provide this amino acid called proline, which is like the building block to keratin, which is, you know, you get those keratin treatments for your hair and all that.

Amy: Oh my god.

Whitney: So, supposedly it is giving, you know, the main protein what it needs. So that makes sense. So, cut to a year later or something, I start to notice that every time I'm in the shower, I'm creating a cute little baby wig out of the clumps of hair that are falling out of my head.

Amy: Oh.

Whitney: And, you know, you're kind of like, "Oh, this isn't good." And so, at that time I was very into the affirmations.

Amy: Yeah.

Whitney: So my thought process was, I'm just going to tell my hair how luxurious and beautiful it is and how much I love it while I'm washing it.

Amy: I love that. Okay, did it work?

Whitney: It did not work.

Amy: It didn't.

Whitney: No. Continued with the baby wigs. So I was like, "I've got to do something. You know, what am I going to do?" And I was very into, I don't want to add medications or anything, I just want to try to find something. And everyone talked about biotin.

Amy: Biotin.

Whitney: Biotin, biotin. So I got on biotin. And by the way, my nails have always been crappy. Like, thin and just not pretty at all.

Amy: Yeah, mine aren't great either.

Whitney: And so I started on the biotin. And like after a couple weeks, I didn't notice any difference in my nails. And I was like, "Okay, well I don't think this is working."

Amy: They say biotin is kind of a scam. I think that, I don't think it's great. I don't know, I read something about it not too long ago and it was like, "It's a crock."

Whitney: Oh, really?

Amy: And I have taken it pretty consistently for years but...

Whitney: And you still have bad nails.

Amy: And I still have, I don't even know because I get them done.

Whitney: Well, that's what I've been trying not to do is get them done, because that gel nail, they're not good.

Amy: Let's see your nails. Yeah, they're not terrible, but I can feel ridges on top of them.

Whitney: And they're flimsy. Like they bend.

Amy: That's the way mine are.

Whitney: So gross. Anyway, ugh. Anyway, so after a couple weeks of the biotin, I'm like, "This isn't working." And I get very impatient. Especially when you're losing your hair and you just, every day or, you know, however often you're washing your hair, and you just are like, "I've got to stop this now." You know, you kind of get a little bit spasmodic about it.

Amy: When your hair was really full, you didn't ever lose it? You didn't notice?

Whitney: I was not making wigs. I was just getting, like, okay, this is kind of gross, but like what I would do is like I would run the conditioner through my hair, right? And then, this is what I would do, I would do this and whatever hair was on my hands would create a tiny little ball or a little knot.

Amy: Huh.

Whitney: Okay, this was, I'm not joking you, like, it, I could have made a wig for, let's say, you know, a cockatiel or something. Like a nice, like a bird. Like it could have had a nice head of hair.

Amy: Like a little toupee.

Whitney: Yeah. No, like a full bob wig. Like a full bob wig.

Amy: So you would roll your hands together after?

Whitney: No, I didn't have to do that when this hair, it was like, it was just noticeable in your hand, not in the drain. I didn't have to do this, I just went thwip thwip and it was a ball of hair.

Amy: Wow.

Whitney: Like a hamster. Like a hamster head. I could create a nice, full, tiny, like tiny bob wig. Yes.

Amy: Every time you shower?

Whitney: Every time.

Amy: Well, I probably could, I mean, I feel like I brush it and there's so much in my brush.

Whitney: I don't even want to think about what was happening in the brush at the time because I was so worked up about what was happening in the shower. But I'm sure I could have maybe, you know, made a trio of wigs during the week. But anyway, so I'm obviously freaking out. I don't think the biotin's working. So I start combing the internet for other suggestions and I came across rosemary oil.

Amy: Yes, yes, I was going to mention this. I've already saved something about this.

Whitney: Okay. So I purchased some rosemary oil, but just a heads up: either you purchase rosemary oil and then you have to mix it with something, or you have to get a something that's already got a solution. You can't put rosemary oil directly on your head.

Amy: Or what happens?

Whitney: Stinging. I'm not really sure. I didn't do it.

Amy: Probably.

Whitney: But it damages your hair. It probably burns your scalp or something. I don't know.

Amy: God, then your hair falls out.

Whitney: Yeah, exactly. What the, so I didn't do that. So I bought like a solution. Okay, well you have to cover your scalp in it, you know? And just fun fact about me: I don't like to wash my hair very often because I don't like to blow-dry it. Because it's long and it used to be full and it would take a long time, I'd have to take my clothes off because I'd be sweating.

Amy: Can I just pause for one second though? Yes. Why didn't you just start taking marine collagen again?

Whitney: I didn't think of that. I didn't think of that! What I started to think was, none of this, so anyway, I get the rosemary oil and I can't handle it. You're a greaseball. You are a greaseball with the rosemary oil. I couldn't do it. So I ditched that.

Amy: I like when my hair is greasy and just hangs.

Whitney: You do?

Amy: I know it's so weird. I think it's because I have such dry curly hair.

Whitney: But you don't like to go out with it looking like that.

Amy: No.

Whitney: What? That's not true. I've seen you a million times and your hair is never greasy. You do wear a hat sometimes, is that when?

Amy: I do. I do. But my hair really doesn't get greasy unless I put oil in it.

Whitney: Right. Right. Speaking of oil, you had mentioned castor oil at one point. Do you just put that on your...

Amy: We're going to do, I am just using it on my eyelashes. I think it's deserving of a whole episode.

Whitney: Yeah, because that, I didn't choose castor oil, for some reason I went with rosemary. I guess because it smells pretty.

Amy: No, rosemary is the thing that they talk about for hair loss. They say that it has similar effects to minoxidil.

Whitney: Okay. Okay, so what happened? Nothing, because I quit.

Amy: Okay.

Whitney: Because I couldn't take the greasiness. I didn't want to wash my hair every day, especially when I'm losing hair, I was worried that washing it was just making it come out faster.

Amy: Makes sense. Makes sense.

Whitney: So then I'm like, "Okay, none of this is working. I'm losing all this hair." I was already on hormones, but only estrogen and progesterone. I go to a functional health doctor. He puts me on testosterone, a thyroid medication, and DHEA. All of which can help with hair growth.

Amy: Oh, great. Well, I'm on thyroid medicine and DHEA.

Whitney: However, if you take too much of it, it does the opposite.

Amy: Right, too much testosterone, that's why men go bald.

Whitney: Yeah, too much testosterone makes your hair fall out. Yeah, it's just, it's exhausting. So, for about two weeks after I'm on this new cocktail of hormones, my hair stops shedding. Like, I'm not making the baby wigs. But just for two weeks, and then it comes back.

Amy: Uh.

Whitney: So I get back with the doctor and he puts me on another medication. And now I'm like, "Really? Like another medication?" It's called, I'm going to have to look at the name, spironolactone. Spironolactone. It's like a water pill, it's a diuretic, but it blocks the effects of the DHT, the testosterone stuff in your hair, so it's like a local fix. Because I was like, "Why not just stop the testosterone? If I'm getting too much testosterone, why not just pull that back?" But it's this delicate balance. You have to have enough testosterone where you have a good mood and energy, but then you have to make sure that you block this DHT stuff. So basically that's what the spironolactone, it's a mouthful, will do. But now, yeah.

Amy: How are you taking testosterone?

Whitney: A cream. At this moment, at this time in the story, I am getting a compounded testosterone cream.

Amy: And where were you rubbing it on?

Whitney: I'm so glad you asked. I would rub it in between my thighs, Amy.

Amy: I did that too and I grew hair there.

Whitney: Yes, that is something that could have happened.

Amy: I got hairier thighs. And your vulva turned purple?

Whitney: And my labia darkened. They didn't turn purple, it just got kind of like a, almost like melasma.

Amy: I don't know what that word means.

Whitney: Melasma is just like a hyperpigmentation.

Amy: Okay.

Whitney: Yeah, and I was just like, "Well, what the heck?" And so, well, this is what we have to remember: like I was just so desperate for hair, right? That I'm just doing my own research, throwing things on my body, and then going to the doctor and doing whatever they tell me to do without really, like, by the way, I'm on high blood pressure medication, Lisinopril. So the spironolactone or whatever, it also works with high blood pressure. So if you're taking both of those things, that can be a problem. Like, but nobody asked me. Like my doctor, he originally had all my medications, but I don't think he knew, I don't think he remembered. Anyway, you have to be an advocate for yourself.

Amy: Okay, he sucks as a doctor.

Whitney: Yeah, but, well, he was 89 and he said, "But I've got the body of a 63-year-old because he's on all these supplements."

Amy: Wow. No, they say you want a young doctor and an old lawyer.

Whitney: Oh.

Amy: But not with functional health necessarily. I don't know. So...

Whitney: I want to point out too that you are not a particularly hairy person.

Amy: I am not.

Whitney: And I am.

Amy: Yes. Okay.

Whitney: So I did not get hair on my thighs.

Amy: Yeah, I did.

Whitney: But I did start getting hair on my face.

Amy: Oh, fun.

Whitney: And so I'm losing hair on top and, I remember vividly like in the shower and I'm washing my face and the peach fuzz along my cheekbones and like my hairline over here, it was getting knotted. And I was like, "What is happening?" I had to get the razor and just shhh shhh.

Amy: Wow.

Whitney: Because I mean, during, it was knotting. I was washing my face and little knots of peach fuzz. It's crazy.

Amy: I have not experienced...

Whitney: It's crazy! It's so frustrating because all I want is that on top of my head, and because of the cocktail I had of too much of this and not enough of this, it was like shutting down, it was like closing the hair follicles on your scalp and wide open on your face.

Amy: Okay, so it sounds like you need a topical minoxidil. Have we gone there?

Whitney: Okay, so yes. Or, wait, there's another one, hold on. Niacin, oh no, I've done the niacin, niacinamide or, I don't know which one. No, I did around this time as well. I have a great doctor friend, a great friend who is an ER doctor and she does a lot with aesthetics too, like she does the Botox and stuff like that. Anyway, she created her own cocktail of like estrogen and minoxidil and I think there was some steroid something in there. I don't know. She created this cocktail for herself and she said it was working like it was so amazing she got to take out all of her hair extensions.

Amy: She took out her hair extensions?

Whitney: Yeah, but she'd been on it for a while. And I was like, "Give me some of that." But it's the same situation of like, first of all, it's a spray.

Amy: It's topical or you're taking...

Whitney: No, it's topical. And you spray it. And then she was like, "Don't spray it, just get a dropper and drop it in little spots on your head." I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how many droplets, I don't know where I should be dropping it, then you have to massage it. I quit. Too much work. It just, yeah, sadly it was a little too much work and I had been doing it sporadically, not every night, for a while, and I didn't see, I'm still getting the baby wigs. So I was like, that's when I went to the functional health doctor and was like, "I need, something's going on with my hormones. Like, this was not an issue." You know, at all. So he puts me on all this stuff that then, come to find out, it wasn't balanced properly and it just made me lose even more hair.

Amy: Oh my god.

Whitney: The DHEA, and I don't know all the science behind it, but like the, I think a normal woman my age, I think the range is like up to 170 or something. I had it written down on here but I don't remember, yeah.

Amy: I mean, that means nothing to me, kind of, you know?

Whitney: Okay, me neither. But let me just tell you, when I got my blood work done, my DHEA level was at 243. And the max for a person my age is 170.

Amy: Oh, you're rocking the DHEA. Maybe stop taking it.

Whitney: Yeah, so I stopped taking it. But again, like he just, throwing more medication in the mix when I said, "This isn't working." He just threw in that spironolactone or whatever. So, needless to say, I'm beside myself because the hair is still falling out.

Amy: So where are we right now?

Whitney: Okay, so right now, what I finally did was I found a hormone doctor, a specialty hormone doctor. She changed my estrogen to a higher dose on the patch.

Amy: You take a patch for your estrogen?

Whitney: It's right here on my hip bone.

Amy: Cute.

Whitney: And she gave me oral minoxidil, okay? So now I'm taking oral minoxidil and, I, how does it know where to go? Here's what everyone needs to understand: when you're doing like anything that's going to open up your hair follicles, what it's really doing, like this minoxidil, it's making the hair cycle more aggressive or whatever. So in the beginning, you actually have what's called "dread shed." And you lose a lot of hair because it's opening up everything and getting rid of all the dead stuff and then preparing for regrowth. So it can be up to six months before you see any difference, and in the meantime you're like, "I'm, you know, still trying to cover this bald spot up here."

Amy: You have a bald spot?

Whitney: I do.

Amy: What?

Whitney: I know. I was going to, all right, hold on. I'm going to have to take my ear...

Amy: Let's see this. I'm going to report, hold on. I don't believe you.

Whitney: I'm telling you, when I, do you see it?

Amy: I mean, I see your scalp, but that's called a bald spot. It looks like a part.

Whitney: No, dude, I've never had a part in the back of my head. No. Well, a little bit, but no. This is like something where if I put my hair up in a pony, like not a ponytail, but like a half-and-half. It's hard with the camera there. I can't, okay, I can't maneuver around that much. Um, I'm having to make sure that that is covered. I never, ever in my whole life have ever had to think about covering a part of my scalp, you know? So now I'm on this oral minoxidil and I do think I'm finally finished with the dread shed. But here's what I realized while I'm doing all, like going back over all this for this episode is: there's no cure for the hair loss right now. Everything you do is masking the symptoms, which means when you stop doing it, back to where you started.

Amy: Shit.

Whitney: So now I'm stuck on this minoxidil and I don't know what I'm going to do because I don't want to have to take this for the rest of my life. So, I don't know, I think I'm going to go back to marine collagen.

Amy: Uh, yeah.

Whitney: Which will take a while and then at some point I'll have to get off the minoxidil and go through the dread shed again.

Amy: Yeah, you're going to have to go back on the marine collagen. But I want to ask: where did this correspond, A, why does this happen at this age in our life? And B, I think it's hormone-related, but B, where did this correspond with you perimenopause and menopause?

Whitney: Yeah, this all started, so the pandemic, let's see, so this started two years ago for me when I started losing this hair and I was postmenopausal. Because I, when did you have that? When I, so, correct me if I'm wrong, menopause is when you don't have your period for a year, right? So that was at 51. And now I'm 54. But two years ago, I was 52. So I mean it was postmenopausal when I noticed it. But it could have started before that. But it is all hormonal. For me. Because I've always had great hair, never had an issue. It's hormonal. So maybe that marine collagen wouldn't have ended up helping, I don't know, long term. I don't know.

Amy: I don't know either. I'm just curious because like it seems like at this age we're all kind of struggling with this. I mean, I have extensions because my hair just looks like baby hair now and I mean I had like really pretty good hair when I was younger.

Whitney: Yeah, it's been a minute. In hindsight, after this whole journey, if I had the money, I think what I would have told myself to do is get back on the marine collagen and get like one row of extensions or something to kind of give me the patience to wait and see if what I'm doing is working. Which, but then how would you know if you're covering it with hair extensions? I don't know.

Amy: It's really hard. I mean when she takes them out, my hair looks like ugh, you know? And like she says it's growing back in, but I don't want to take them out.

Whitney: And you have to be very careful with hair extensions too, because if you're doing the tape-in or whatever, it...

Amy: Don't do it. Don't do it.

Whitney: It can cause more damage.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't do tape-in. I do sew-in and only do it above your ear line. That's what my person at The Collective ATX, a little plug for them because they sponsor my show. Yeah, because when you turn your head, if it's below your ear line, your skin moves and it will tear out your hair. Below your ear line, so you have to go above that. So that's why she says you have to be so careful.

Whitney: Yeah, I would tell people that are going down this hair loss path: keep getting blood work done. Because I wouldn't have known about my DHEA if I wasn't testing my own blood. I mean I wasn't doing it at my house, but I got on that functional health thing, you know? Where I can request tests every six months. And so I knew before my doctors knew that my DHEA was off the freaking charts. And that, I really believe, is what created the main reason for the hair.

Amy: Do you work with somebody that looks at your blood chart?

Whitney: Um, well, the functional medicine doctor did, but I lost faith in him so I don't go to him anymore. And what I did was...

Amy: You put it into Chat?

Whitney: Oh, yeah. Well, the functional medicine app has clinician notes so like it'll give you all of, I should do a little episode on it so everybody can see and I can show you exactly what it looks like. But you'll get notes on the blood work. But what was helpful is I've got a notebook with all of my test results and then I made a spreadsheet, which is hilarious because I don't know really how to do spreadsheets. But when I went to my hormone specialist for the first time, I had a record of like, "This is what my baseline was. These are all of my test results for what my estrogen's been doing, this is what my testosterone's been doing." All of that. And then as far as ChatGPT, I put all my supplements and stuff in, which I've said before, you know? And so I'll have a conversation with ChatGPT about, like just recently I'm like, "What can I do for mental focus that I'm not already doing? What can I add?" you know? And he's like, "Oh, great idea! You're so smart."

Amy: Did you give it a directive when you entered that, like, "You're a dietitian with a medical degree" or "You're a functional nutritionist" or something like that, telling the ChatGPT what they are?

Whitney: Oh, no. I didn't even think of that.

Amy: Yeah, apparently that helps.

Whitney: I usually'll say, "What does the research say on this?"

Amy: Good, that's good. That helps.

Whitney: But yeah, that's a good idea. I never thought of that. Anyway, side note: the other day I was talking to Gemini and I was like, "Total up this column," and it was like, "The total of that column is 10." And I was like looked at it and I was like, "No it's not, it's 16." And it goes, "You're right, it is 16." And I go, "Total that column again." And it goes, "The total of that column is 10." And I was like, "You've got to be fucking kidding me."

Amy: And then did you say, "Why do you think it's 10?"

Whitney: They do say that you actually for ChatGPT should use multiple ones. Yeah, but like many times I'll be like, "But wait, isn't it true that blah, blah, blah?" and then it'll go, "You're absolutely right! Thank you for pointing out that critical piece of information." And I'm like, "Oh my god."

Amy: My friend said you have to go like, "Are you sure?" and then it'll be like, "Oh I did make a mistake." Like, and you're like, "Oh my god." Yeah, it's not, you know, you can't take it 100%. Okay, so I have something I saw online to share with you.

Whitney: Okay.

Amy: This is a caffeine shampoo. Have you heard of this?

Whitney: That's what she put in her concoction, not steroids, caffeine.

Amy: I have not heard of it but...

Whitney: It's all about stimulating the hair follicle.

Amy: This is called Alpecin caffeine shampoo. Stimulates hair roots during washing, hair root activator. And it says, this is from someone I follow that's like a beauty aesthetician person, and it says, "Caffeine shampoos are amazing against hair loss. They block DHT hormone."

Whitney: That's what that spironolactone or whatever it's called, that was what it was supposed to do.

Amy: "That's responsible for hair shedding. Leave it on the scalp for two to three minutes to work." So, there's something.

Whitney: I bought into that shampoo and conditioner that Jennifer Garner is always talking about.

Amy: I think anything that a celebrity claims that's over-the-counter is bullshit. I think Aniston's is bullshit.

Whitney: Oh, really?

Amy: I think Jennifer Garner's is bullshit. I think it's bullshit. I think Blake Lively's is bullshit.

Whitney: Well, it's called Thrive and you know, she makes these cute little videos about it and she's in the shower and she's using it and I'm like, "She's so cute, I'm going to get it."

Amy: Yep. Good marketing. That's all.

Whitney: But yeah, it's good marketing. It is, I mean sadly, like most things with our health, it's like a full-time job to try to figure out what's working for you, what doesn't, what's a scam, what's not, you know? Minoxidil does have the research behind it. I was doing the on the scalp and I just couldn't maintain it, whereas with the oral tablet I take it every day and it's consistent. So, we'll see what happens. I am finally starting to, I'm sorry to say, my baby wig business is now closing up shop, hopefully. So I don't know. I'll maybe try the caffeine thing. I'll have to put it into ChatGPT and see if whatever is like pushing down on some hormones, you just need to make sure like what is it doing that's keeping the DHT away and is it somehow?

Amy: I'm tired. I'm tired.

Whitney: I'm so tired. The good news is that they are coming up with, it's all in the, you know, testing phases or whatever, but there are some treatments coming out that should cure hair loss. But it's like the platelet therapy and the stem cells and, you know, exosomes.

Amy: Stem cells I hear.

Whitney: Exosomes, yeah. So there's stuff out there but again, where are they getting these stem cells and exosomes?

Amy: I don't know.

Whitney: Neither do I.

Amy: I don't know. So, and I mean Justin knows men that have gone and had the surgery.

Whitney: Where, I don't know what, the exosomes?

Amy: No, they go get something like a hair transplant.

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: And they look great.

Whitney: Really?

Amy: Yep. Yep. And they, it costs like a bazillion dollars. I want to say 25 grand.

Whitney: I get it though, especially...

Amy: I think all the male stars in Hollywood have probably had...

Whitney: Oh, really?

Amy: Oh yeah. Like these are guys in the public eye. I'm not going to name names, but I mean he told me specifically they have had it.

Whitney: Yeah, I remember back in the day there would be hair transplants, I'm sure they've gotten much better.

Amy: Yeah. Yes.

Whitney: You would never know by looking at these, there are some things that I'm like, "I'm just going to age gracefully," but not going bald.

Amy: No. I mean you're not really in danger of going bald.

Whitney: No, but that space back there is growing. I'll take a picture of it one day.

Amy: Okay, take a picture of it to promote this episode. Come on, do it.

Whitney: All right, I will. All right, we will. And, all right, is there anything else to add? Let me see if I have any other notes on hair, but I don't know. No, I mean the takeaway is that you need to be aware of what your treatment is and understand that whatever it is is going to be ongoing. Like there's not, when you stop doing it, it stops working. And that's very frustrating. So, you know, if you can't keep up with the rosemary oil or can't keep up with whatever, then don't even start it because it's just going to be, you're going to be back to square one.

Amy: Damn.

Whitney: But I'm going to start back up on the marine collagen, I bought it again.

Amy: I have it. I'm going to take it. I put it often in my smoothie or something like that.

Whitney: I've got so much in my freaking water and coffee and smoothies and it's like, I'm just pounding the powder.

Amy: Pounding.

Whitney: You're a powder pounder. That's, I'm a powder pounder. All right. Now I think we're good on...

Amy: Do you have a midlife moment you'd like to share?

Whitney: I did. And so it's so funny. I mean it's annoying. It's around memory. So I bought, I think I told you, I bought this peptide, this Glow peptide.

Amy: Yeah.

Whitney: And I was like finally ready to start it. Because I, again, I'm throwing so much at my body, I want to wait.

Amy: Yeah. I'm constantly blown away by how much you're doing. I feel like I barely knew you before this.

Whitney: Well, I'm a completely different person now because I have all this powder in me.

Amy: You cut yourself, powder just comes out.

Whitney: I'm a completely different, my cells are all different. I'm bald now. No, so I got it out of the, so it came in a package with another peptide that I had used and so then I'm like, "Okay, I'm not going to do them both at the same time, I'll wait." So I get it out of the refrigerator and I open up the baggy and the little peptide vial has liquid in it. So anyone that knows about peptides, it comes in a crystal form.

Amy: Oh.

Whitney: And then you have to, well, it depends. If you're getting it from a doctor, then they will maybe reconstitute it for you. But if you're getting it from a lab on your own...

Amy: Oh.

Whitney: Then you have to reconstitute it with, you know, a certain kind of water, bacteriostatic water. I can't remember. It's sterile water, anyway. And I get it out of the refrigerator, out of its package, and it's already got liquid in there. And I'm like, "What the actual fuck?" And I was sitting there like, "What, I don't understand what's happened. Like, I haven't used it. I don't know why it would have liquid in it." So I email the company and I'm like, "This is what's happened, is this normal? Did it come in a liquid and I just didn't realize?" And they got back to me right away, this is like eight o'clock at night, it was weird.

Amy: I like that.

Whitney: They got back to me right away and they were like, they thought that I was talking about that it was blue. And they were like, "Oh, it's supposed to be blue, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "No, it's not the color, it's that it's liquid." And then they're like, "Yeah, when you put the liquid in there it becomes a liquid." And I'm like, "No, I haven't put anything in there and it's liquid." And then they were like, "Send us a picture." So I sent them pictures of what it looked like and they go, "Oh, it seems that the lid has already been taken off of this. Are you sure this isn't an old vial that you just accidentally pulled out thinking it was new?" And I'm like, "No! I haven't used this at all!" And I can't remember, but there was another vial that I did reconstitute and I'm like, "Did I maybe accidentally put a little bit?" I mean I have no memory of it. None. But obviously I took the lid off and did something to it.

Amy: So what's the final conclusion?

Whitney: The final conclusion was I sent an email and I was like, "Oh, that's weird that the lid's off, but I didn't take the lid off and I live alone so I don't know what happened." And then I sent another email and I'm like, "Perhaps could you give me a discount so that I could get another one because I don't want to use this one." And they sent me back a response and said, "We're going to send you a free one this one time. We're going to send you a free replacement."

Amy: Oh, good!

Whitney: So I just got it and it's crystallized, so...

Amy: Okay, good. Good.

Whitney: But how bizarre? Like I obviously did put something in it. I took the lid off and did something with it. I have no memory of that whatsoever. None. And by the way, it was a little bitty bit of liquid whereas it would have been a whole vial if I had done it correctly.

Amy: Weird. Maybe do the...

Whitney: Somebody just came into my house and opened my refrigerator and unlocked the zippy...

Amy: Well maybe they shipped you the wrong one.

Whitney: No, it only comes in crystal form.

Amy: But maybe they shipped you one that wasn't...

Whitney: It didn't have a lid on it. I don't know. I'm chalking it up, the fact that I couldn't remember when I took the other vial out, like I was trying so hard to remember when I took the first vial out. I had zero memory of it. Zero. So that's my mid moment. Ten hours later, that's my mid moment. Sorry.

Amy: Wow. That is a lot. Oh shit. All right, what's your mid moment? It's that my fucking feet hurt. But, yeah, I know, I went to Vegas this last weekend and...

Whitney: Oh yeah, that's right.

Amy: And, okay, first of all, everything costs so much.

Whitney: Yeah, long gone are the days where you can eat, you know, your weight in shrimp in Vegas for two dollars.

Amy: I think it's shopping in Vegas more was such a shock to me. I don't know if I'm still, that's kind of a midlife moment because I'm like operating on prices from years ago and...

Whitney: 1989?

Amy: Yeah, or even just 2010. And looking at luxury goods, they're so ridiculous now that I was just like, a purse that I thought was cool was $4,600. And you know, I'm just like, "Uh, what?"

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: Like the prices are so high that I am just kind of astonished at, the belt I liked was $3,500.

Whitney: But you're looking in a casino hotel. Like hotel prices are already ridiculous.

Amy: No, I was looking at the actual stores in the Crystals Mall.

Whitney: Oh.

Amy: And so I would go in the luxury stores, I was just poking around because I had some time to kill and I was just like, "Wow, like wow."

Whitney: Are people really winning this much at the casino?

Amy: I mean, I just, I think I'm just kind of astonished. Yeah. I mean, before when I saw prices, they were still like out of my reach, but now they're like, "Why would anyone pay that?" Question mark. Like that's kind of like how I feel. Like it's just really something. So anyway, that's a bit of a midlife moment where you're like, "God, how did these prices get so...?"

Whitney: "Who would ever pay for...?" Yeah.

Amy: "Back in my day," I mean just, give me my black market China hookup.

Whitney: Ooh, I want your black market...

Amy: Oh, have I not given it to you? Oh yeah, y'all, I have a black market China hookup.

Whitney: Oh good, I want it.

Amy: I should put it in the show notes. They're awesome. Shit's real. I'll show you, shit's real. It's not fake goods. It's like, remember when the tariffs came out and China was like, "We don't think so, we're going to release this to the public." Yeah, they're actually making everything, they are. They're making everything. Says "Made in Italy," "Made in France," a lie. It's really China.

Whitney: Oh.

Amy: Yeah, it's China. And it is quality.

Whitney: Oh, well, I need the hookup immediately.

Amy: You got it. So you can literally take a photo...

Whitney: Do they do wigs?

Amy: Designer wigs? They probably do. All right, so back to your feet.

Whitney: Yeah, my feet, I just can't really wear heels anymore. I just can't do it.

Amy: Oh.

Whitney: You can, but you are like taking a stand. Well, I mean I did wear heels Friday night in Vegas and I did okay. We went to dinner, we actually walked to the restaurant and back and I did okay. They were a little lower, but still heels.

Amy: It wasn't like you were dancing on them all night.

Whitney: No! I know I can't do that. Right. But the next night I knew I was walking from my hotel room, which was right by the elevator, and the elevator was right by the exit. So, because we were at Vdara, I didn't have to walk through a casino to get to the exit. So I knew I was walking as minimally as possible, getting in the Uber, going to the Italian-American club, and then Ubering back home, right? Yeah. And so I knew it was not going to be a lot, but I was in pain with this pair of platform heels. And they were platforms, which is supposed to be easier.

Amy: Yeah, but they were high. But I just, it's not worth it anymore. I don't know when it actually crossed over to where I have a bunch of heels in my wardrobe room and I just can't do it anymore.

Whitney: Well, that's why the creator of...

Amy: Spanx?

Whitney: Yeah, she has those hideous high-heel sneakers that are horrible. You know, God bless her, I love Sara Blakely. But they are not cheap.

Amy: Aren't they like 300 bucks?

Whitney: Yeah, for some hideous sneaker heels?

Amy: I mean I would be willing to pay that. See, my brain has already shifted, at 300 bucks I'm like, "Okay, we can do that," but they're not cute.

Whitney: No.

Amy: No. I think that, go back to the drawing board on those.

Whitney: Exactly.

Amy: But I love her and I get it, you know?

Whitney: If you're listening, don't be mad at Amy. She didn't say anything bad about you.

Amy: I didn't! When I was ending college, I went on this trip, like a fashion trip for Baylor University, and the woman who ran the trip was like the fashion professor. And she, I asked her what she did her thesis on because she was a doctor, and she said, "Well I did it on shoes." And I was like, "Oh, well what about shoes?" And she said, "Well, what women really want in shoes." And I said, "What do they want?" She said, "Well, they want to look good and be comfortable."

Whitney: Groundbreaking.

Amy: I mean wow.

Whitney: You're so smart.

Amy: Yeah. You don't say. Yeah. So anyway, that is what we want. But thank god for the sneaker revolution period that we can just pretty much wear them with anything. Anyway, that was my midlife moment. I'm feeling a little bummed because I like heels and I have a bunch of pretty ones but it's just not going to work out.

Whitney: It's a weird conditioning though, right? Because I like heels too and they're never comfortable, and I feel like my legs look better in the heels, and when I'm just wearing like flats I feel squatty.

Amy: Me too.

Whitney: But don't you feel like we've been conditioned to believe that?

Amy: 100 percent.

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: Yes we have.

Whitney: Yes we have. But I don't feel sexy in flats.

Amy: I know. I went to see Tron: Ares yesterday and like the mom is Gillian Anderson and she's, oh yeah, super awesome. And, spoiler alert, sorry guys...

Whitney: No, don't spoil it.

Amy: There's a scene where, well, okay, I won't spoil it, but she's walking out at one point talking to her son or whatever and she's wearing these ridiculously high heels. They look so uncomfortable. Yeah. And I'm like, "Uh, why? No one's even around and you're teetering around. Why are we doing this to ourselves?" Like I had a moment where I was just like, "He's getting to wear comfortable shoes so fuck this."

Whitney: Um, Elizabeth Gilbert, right? That's her name. Yeah. She wrote Eat Pray Love and she has a new book out.

Amy: Have you read it?

Whitney: I haven't read it yet, have you?

Amy: I listened to the whole thing. It was amazing.

Whitney: Oh yeah, you said it was so good.

Amy: Okay everyone listen. If you're in codependency recovery, it could trigger you but it's great advice. I'm kind of on the other side of it.

Whitney: Yeah, yeah. You'll enjoy it. But she, I saw her in an interview while she was promoting this book and she said she was like at a conference and she was like in hair and makeup and all these pretty clothes and she was looking around at the men and they're just like no hair and makeup, they're comfortable, they're wearing comfortable shoes. And she's like, "Fuck it, I'm done with this." I think that's when she decided to shave her head.

Amy: It is.

Whitney: She talks about it and like, I mean you know we have been brainwashed and beauty is such, I was thinking while you were talking about hair, the hair industry is billions of dollars and here we are like, "Well, but I want to have a full head of hair." Of course we do, you know? But like how much of that is us being brainwashed into that's what we have to have to look good.

Amy: Right. It's a, we get it from the day we start watching TV or ads or listening to, watching shows. I mean, did I tell you Justin and I had a fight the other day?

Whitney: No.

Amy: I guess you'd call it a fight, I don't know. I got really angry. So we were watching the Golden Bachelor.

Whitney: Okay. We love that show. Okay, I have not watched it this season.

Amy: But the women have done things to their faces, right? And sometimes it's a little jarring.

Whitney: Mmm.

Amy: And I maybe said something about it and he started lecturing me on doing things to my face or not doing things to my face.

Whitney: I know.

Amy: I know. And I got really pissed because these women can't fucking win. Like, I can feel my blood pressure. These women can't win, right? Because either it's going to be like, "Oh you've had something done," or you've done injectives, or you look old, you know? And then this Bachelor guy from this go-round, famously was on a podcast and said he wanted younger women, blah, blah, blah. Well, they addressed it right away in this season, like literally in the first 10 seconds they play the clip of him and he apologizes. He apologizes to the women and he says he was misguided and all this stuff. But I feel a little like your truth is out there, you know what I mean?

Whitney: Yeah.

Amy: And you can kind of tell by the women that he picks. I feel like some he picked just to show like, "Look, I'm not really like that."

Whitney: Right.

Amy: But when it comes down to it, I don't think so. And so I just felt like these women can't win and then Justin's here lecturing me and PS he's 38.

Whitney: Yeah, he is.

Amy: And doesn't know the difference between lip filler and a lip flip. And literally, he was like, "Lip flip sounds way more invasive," and I'm like, "You don't know what you're talking about."

Whitney: Right. Deep breath.

Amy: And so I mean I got angry because I felt like our beauty standards are just, I'm not really angry at him, you know? We ended up talking about it and everything, but it's just, it's triggering.

Whitney: Triggering. I think it's unfortunate because we don't know what a 50-year-old is supposed to look like now. Not really. Because unless, I do have friends that live in small towns and they don't get anything done and I'm like, "Oh, that's jarring. That's jarring!"

Amy: It is jarring. Because you're like, "Oh my goodness!"

Whitney: I mean like, if I hadn't done anything when Justin met me at 48, I mean like he would brag about how good I look and I'm like, "Mmm, that costs money!" So don't tell me I can't do anything now because that's what you were attracted to. That's what you signed up for. It's a delicate balance and you and I have talked about this, you know? I want to age gracefully, I don't want to chase what I was. I got to be that for a very long time and it was fucking amazing and fun. And now I have to lean into this era and I want to do it gracefully but, you know, I don't want a bald spot in the back of my head. And if having lash extensions makes me feel pretty in the morning...

Amy: Do you have lash extensions?

Whitney: I do.

Amy: Oh, they look really good.

Whitney: Thank you. I just started using them. But it's another thing that I have to keep up with. Well this is, we're going to do an episode y'all on giving a fuck and like I think this is part of that. Because you know obviously I do all sorts of things, you know? So I am not shaming anyone right now at all.

Amy: Right. So I know and then you know right at this time that we had this talk, Gillian Anderson...

Whitney: Gillian Anderson passed away?

Amy: No, Diane Keaton passed away!

Whitney: Oh!

Amy: Oh my god.

Whitney: Yes.

Amy: And I was looking at her and I don't know if she did anything. She looked really good.

Whitney: I think she had to have but she was so quirky you hope that maybe she didn't do too much.

Amy: She still looked like herself though.

Whitney: That's the key. That's the key.

Amy: She did. Yeah and I don't know. It was just like, I just felt sort of an onslaught in that moment and I don't know. Justine Bateman, she's Jason Bateman's sister and her whole platform on Instagram is about, well, it's about AI and actors, but it's also about being your real age. Like we don't know anymore and it's jarring. When you look at her it's a little jarring. But also, isn't she your age?

Whitney: I think she's older than me. Um, wait I've got to look. Everybody let's pull it up. And then bless her heart she wears super black dramatic eyeliner that also kind of makes her look a little harsher.

Amy: Yeah.

Whitney: But at the same time I appreciate that she's speaking out and she's like, "I'm going to let my body age the way that it's meant to." But yeah, nobody knows what a 50-year-old looks like. Did you see her? Where is she? She's not, oh yeah here she is, here she is. Let me see.

Amy: Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean.

Whitney: Yeah. But 20 years ago that was okay. We, you know...

Amy: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Here, oh my.

Whitney: Yeah. I mean it's jarring but that's, it shouldn't be. When men look like that nobody is like, "Oh my goodness!"

Amy: But some of them are doing a lot now, you know? I mean like have you seen Bradley Cooper? I think he had a lift.

Whitney: No, did he?

Amy: Yeah he looks different. Hmm. And Simon Cowell. I mean there's a lot of them that are doing stuff.

Whitney: That's very scary when, because it can very easily go in the wrong direction. Yeah, I know, I know.

Amy: All right. Oh, so we've gotten off on a tangent but that's all right. Anyway, so moving forward with hair, anything to add? I mean or anything you're, what you're doing right now? I forgot.

Whitney: I'm doing oral minoxidil, I got off my testosterone, got off the DHEA. I'm on a little bit more estrogen than I used to be and I'm finally taking my thyroid medication properly since you alerted me to the rules of the game. Oh god.

Amy: So anyway, ugh. So complicated.

Whitney: It's so complicated. Look guys, everybody is just doing the best that they can.

Amy: That is true. That is right.

Whitney: And we really want to get to a place where we really can just do what we want. Like do what we want, if we don't want to put stuff in our bodies then don't, if we do then do, and no judgment either way.

Amy: Yeah, if you want to go bald go bald.

Whitney: Well, I mean, we're not going bald. No. But we still do what we want.

Amy: That's right. And we're anything but mid.

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